(THEME MUSIC PLAYING)
(APPLAUSE)
Hello, good morning. Nice to see you.
Hello, hello, hello.
Hello and good morning.
This evening, BBC television provides a treat
for those who think that all foreigners are funny
and that anyone with a false French accent
is good for a joke.
Tonight some 17 million people will tune into BBC One
for the start of a new series of "'Allo, 'Allo."
But of course, this series does more
than just make fun of foreigners.
It also follows the fortunes of a group of French resistance fighters,
whose comic antics deeply offend some of those
for whom the events are more than mere history.
(THEME MUSIC PLAYING)
Now, what did you do in the war, grandpapa?
I was sewing a ladies silk knickers
into a torn balloon so that the British airmen could escape.
Ah, have you not finished that balloon yet?
Soon the restaurant will be full
and this place will be crawling with Germans.
Don't move.
Now listen very carefully.
I shall say this only "whence."
The basket has been woven by the weavers of women.
Forgive me, I do not have my code book.
What does that mean?
Exactly what it says.
The basket is ready to be attached to the balloon.
- Ah, good. - Rene, customers.
Oh, 'eck. Look, you must be out of here in 10 minutes.
Michelle, we have not repaired
all the 'oles in this silk balloon.
We shall require one more pair of silk knickers.
I will give my last pair for France.
Remove them behind the curtain. There is a man present.
Oh no, do not mind me.
I have seen it all before.
But a very long time ago.
No, just a moment ago
when I dropped my needle.
Well, as I said, around 17 million people
watch "'Allo, 'Allo" regularly and no wonder.
But despite that, many other people find the series offensive,
often because they themselves were involved in the war.
We'll be talking to some of those in a moment.
But for those who support and enjoy the show,
it has taken on almost a cult status.
Let me introduce you to the members
of the "'Allo 'Allo" fan club
from Bell Broughton in Worcestershire.
Rene, are you enjoying your day away from Edith?
Yes, I am indeed. Of course it's nice to be away
from her whining voice and singing.
And what about Yvette and--
Yvette-- Yvette is running the cafe.
Someone has to be in charge while I am away.
- You're not missing Yvette and Michelle? - Very much.
Herr Flick--
Are you really as nasty as he's made out to be?
- I try to be. - You try to be?
How does that manifest itself?
Well, if the Helga burns the toast, I will torture her.
- You torture her? - Yeah.
- With a Birmingham accent? - Yeah.
With a German Birmingham accent?
What form does the torture take?
I will make her sleep under the bed and I will sleep on top.
Rene, what else do you--
Where do you actually practice your accents,
Your French and your German?
I don't actually practice it very much, as you can hear.
You're not doing too bad. And the costume,
- Where does that come from? - This--
This is the wife's.
The rest is mine.
You started all this. How did it start?
It all started basically about 12 months ago.
We-- Two or three of us started watching the program
and it just grew from there.
- How many-- The two of you? - These basic three, four.
So how many have you got now altogether?
- There's over 50-- - 50. And you all dress up in--
You would normally be in uniform now.
- Yes, we would. - Tell us what uniforms you'd be wearing.
Herr Flick would be in his leather Gestapo coat.
Scobie here would be in his general--
What part do you play, Scobie?
- I play lieutenant Gruber. - And what do you do?
Tell us-- Do an imitation. You've got Barry laughing already.
What does lieutenant Gruber do?
Come on, it's a talent-scouting day.
Well, he chases after Mimi.
Where do you actually perform?
Where do you dress up like this
- Just in the pub or-- - Just in the pub.
How do people react to you?
Wearing a German uniform in the pub, how do people react to you?
People have come in saying it's a bit strange at first,
but as I said, they've come in, they've enjoyed it,
we've done our own video in there, and recorded it all ourselves,
it's gone down well. It's been great.
People don't take offence or they don't object?
- No, no, - Not ever once?
- No, never. - We never offended anybody.
Not that we know of.
They've taken it in the sense it was meant to be done.
Barry, why is the series so popular,
what's its appeal?
Well, it's a-- First, I don't think
that it-- The key thing is that it's
it does anything about the French resistance,
it's actually parodying another BBC series,
"Secret Army". I think the whole point of it is
that it's one television show
parodying another television show
and the attitudes created in the first, the serious one,
"Secret Army" are being parodied in "'Allo 'Allo."
And I think people in Britain love parodies, they love--
That's very subtle, I'm not sure I was aware of that.
- No, no, no, well-- - I just see it as a
straightforward kind of mimicking
of whether it be Frenchmen or German officer or air force.
But it's Feydeau farce. I mean, it's Feydeau farce in the '80s.
And what the Parisians were laughing at in the 1900s--
We are laughing at very similar comedy today.
And there was a Feydeau--
A film based on a Feydeau play
"Hotel Paradiso" on television recently
and that was terribly popular.
I mean, people are laughing at speech impediments,
and all kinds of unpleasantness in the life of Parisians,
written by a Parisian, for a Parisian audience.
But can you understand that there are elements in the series,
that actually do offend other people?
Yes of course I can.
What would you identify the part with that would offend them?
Obviously, if you have personal experience of the Gestapo,
however well played the character of Herr Flick is,
you are not going to enjoy that,
because the memories of the reality
are going to be so horrific that you will not
find any imitation amusing.
That seems to be the key factor to me.
Let's find out. There are people here who are vehemently opposed
to the "'Allo 'Allo" series and what they depict.
Bill, you feel quite strongly about this, don't you?
Why do you find it so offensive?
Well, Barry has already mentioned something
which I think introduces my comments.
I'm not vehemently opposed to it,
but I happen to have been the technical adviser to "Secret Army."
I was also asked to go
on the "'Allo 'Allo" team
as a technical advisor.
Now, I don't understand why the BBC
have set out deliberately to send up "The Secret Army."
The Secret Army was a splendid program,
it had good audience ratings, it--
But this isn't The Secret Army, isn't it so much--
No, but let me come to the point.
I identify myself very much with people.
Having done the two-- Well, seen this program and done the other one,
I find that people who have seen the secret army
and have identified themselves with it,
these are people on the continent,
in the Netherlands, in France and in Belgium,
they recognized the BBC was at that time
paying respect to them,
in a way congratulating them for their valour,
for their bravery and so on.
They now see "'Allo 'Allo"
and they again identify themselves.
This time they are identifying themselves
in the most ridiculous way.
Is there anyone else who feels vehemently opposed? You do...
I feel very much-- Very vehemently opposed
and I know I shall get lots of flak from the opposition
and I shan't be saying it only but once.
I shall say it many times.
I am a public speaker.
I was four years in the Austrian resistance
and I have given talks since 1963,
and I have always after the talks
recently been addressed with regard to this "'Allo 'Allo."
But if you could hear the comments,
they are absolutely incredible.
What specifically-- What is it?
People are objecting
that the young people are indoctrinated with such a silly program,
because let's face it, it's absolutely stupid.
Give me an example of what it is you object to.
I object in particular to the aircrews, the British aircrews.
Now, to portrait them as nuns, let's face it,
and in pantomime costumes as cows to be milked,
well, you can't go any lower, gentlemen. Can you?
- Barry? - Well, we-- Yes--
Is it offensive to British aircrew that were shot down
over France, Germany, during the war.
No, but I've seen aircrew shot down.
Right away, I've seen a navigator,
in fact I rescued him from a burning Lancaster,
and this man was anything but funny.
And the Gestapo who came for him,
or should I say the officers who came for him,
there was nothing funny about the colonel
or what you portrait or the daft aid he got.
There was nothing funny about the German officers,
they were brutal, arrogant and cruel
in all the countries they occupied.
- Barry? - Yes-- Yes of course they are.
I mean, nobody is doubting that for one moment.
But what we're not talking about-- We are not talking about something
that is pretending to be real any more
than the farces of Feydeau pretended to be real Parisian life.
Any humour has to be tasteless in a curious way
before it gets any effect.
The point about this, Barry,
is that the lady is talking about a specific-- She's--
A direct, first-hand experience.
A horrific experience, real people being treated badly.
She's now offended, because she's seeing a modern world
portraying them in a hilarious, in her terms offensive, manner.
- Yes, I quite-- - Shouldn't we respect that?
Wait a minute. On what level do we see Kurt Waldheim?
- I know. - You're an Austrian,
how do you regard Kurt Waldheim? Wait a minute.
We're talking about taste. I'm sorry?
We're not making a farce of Kurt Waldheim--
But in 20 years time we may well do that.
I hope not. It seems to me that the--
None of the people over there can obviously,
unless they're older than they look,
can have any idea
of what the occupation was like.
I've spoken to people who experienced it
and it was cruel and desperately--
It was a matter of life and death in those days.
And I don't think that you can make a joke,
you can't have a farce
about life and death of ordinary people.
The fan club aren't on trial here, it's not you.
You're not the scriptwriters, you're not the actors,
but you've heard a couple and we'll hear more no doubt,
of the way in which people feel. How do you respond to that?
- Well, say-- - Herr Flick.
I agree with them all, you know.
Things that happened during the war obviously were nasty,
that what happened to the English,
the Germans, the jews, the Russians, everybody.
I'm not taking that away
and trying to say that it was a joke. It was far from it.
But we're just doing a bit of humour,
light-hearted humour. We don't want to offend anybody,
we're just trying what we find is funny.
Sean, you're a TV critic. Are these criticisms justified?
SEAN: I think I've lost this argument already,
two years ago I wrote the most unfavourable review
I've ever written of "'Allo 'Allo."
It started and it promptly went to the top of the ratings.
I think I really ought to say that I love it and perhaps they'll take it off.
HOST: What's your position?
I'm slightly different from what's said here,
'cause I think humour can cover anything.
I think you can be funny about anything
and I think where Barry's a bit evasive--
I think you've got to be funny-- Forgive me--
I think you can be funny about something when you deal with a subject,
but then you've really got to deal with it.
I think the problem with "'Allo 'Allo" is
that it's pretending that life and existence in France
was like "Hi-de-hi" or "Dad's Army".
And it actually wasn't like that.
- Yes? - Sean says
you can be funny about anything.
But I find funny-- When you talk about race-- We make racist jokes.
That is the most subtle form of racism.
And it just leads on. Small things, they're based on ignorance.
- So how do you argue that? - SEAN: Humour's like anything, it's a tool.
It can be used badly and it can be used well.
But I think humour in itself doesn't mean
that you can't be funny about something.
I don't think that's really the problem.
Let's talk for a moment on "'Allo 'Allo."
Anybody else feel strongly about "'Allo 'Allo" in the way-- Yes?
- Yes, I do. - And why do you?
You put your hand up at the right moment.
- What upsets you? - As I told you before,
I come from Holland and we had five years hard suffering.
I have seen my father kicked down the stairs,
because I put on august 31, 1940--
30 children of my age,
all 15-- School included.
All the same thing happened. I don't speak just for me.
We put a little jam jar, a little candle
for queen Wilhelmina's birthday who was here in London.
That was about 8:00 am when I switched that on.
About 1:00, I had lunch with my father,
I can see it as this day,
I had lost my mother just before the war.
Two German S.S. came in--
We lived in a flat, mind you.
The doors had to be all open. It was downstairs--
Kicked our flat door in,
went to the window,
- swiped sorry-- My you know on the floor. - That's all right.
My father was then 51.
Two of them took him under their arm like this, "Geh raus!"
Now father slipped because I told you, the door was kicked really--
You know, he had still his serviette on.
Therefore he could not see.
They kicked his head
before they took him down... the stairs.
He was half-unconscious, really. The blood was coming from his face.
And you say it-- Anyway, he had to be there for 24 hours.
In the Euterpestraat in the head office of the S.S.
He came back.
I was then only a girl of 15. Naturally, I'm screaming my head off.
When he came back after 24 hours,
he was exhausted. Two of his nails cut all the way,
apart from his injuries to his back
where he was kicked, and his head was--
Frankly, you must understand
that is a very impressive age as it is.
- Yes, I mean-- - And don't--
Let Barry respond.
At no point is anybody who is supporting "'Allo 'Allo"
taking one iota away from the bravery and decency
of people who suffered through the war.
It's reasonable to remember--
I also lived through the war,
I was 11 when it started. I lived in London throughout that time,
and I am very well aware because my family were very--
As they used to say in the old days--
Politically conscious before the second World War.
Don't forget the British ambassador in Berlin in 1936
said of the nazis, "This country is now
in the hands of dangerous hooligans."
Now if we had laughed more
at Hitler, Goebbels, Goehring, and Himmler,
and Streicher and the rest in 1934, '35, '36, '37
there would have been no World War II.
- It's because we-- - (CROWD CHATTERING)
Rubbish. I've never heard such nonsense in my life.
All this program does
is trivialize a situation
which these ladies have explained very clearly
and it contributes nothing.
You can make humour
out of a funeral,
but it's very distasteful.
I think it's very much a generation thing.
I can't understand--
I watch it, I see it, I turn it off.
I can't be bothered with it because it is so trivial.
We've got other people here. We've talked to resistance fighters
who are very offended. We've got war widows too.
How do they feel about what is being portrayed?
It doesn't worry me. I would like to say too,
surely Londoners didn't have very much to laugh about,
but nobody had a sharper sense of humour once the bombers had gone home
than Londoners, and I think it's their humour that carried them through.
- What was your husband? - He was a soldier.
He was lost to the Japanese, I'm afraid.
I never knew what happened to him.
You don't find anything offensive or distasteful?
No, I don't think it's meant--
It's not malicious in any way
as far as I can see.
You put your hand up too.
I had a brother that was in the R.A.F.,
you know, battle of Britain.
He was shot down, and I had a brother at Dunkirk.
Now they both think the program is very, very funny and so do I.
- You have no objections to anything? - Not at all.
I mean, "Dad's Army" I thought was very funny.
A lot of people object to that.
We've got people here from the R.A.F. as well.
You're from the R.A.F. How do you feel, sir?
Actually, I'm a member of the R.A.F. Escaping Society.
This society was formed by two and a half thousand airmen
who were helped to escape during the war.
In total, we believe
there's something like 25,000 people in Europe
who helped us in his endeavour.
Since the war, we have done our best
to look after these people who helped us,
and in their memory,
I find this program is a little bit over the top.
It parodies it too much.
Whereas I think if they had written a program less...
less of a parody,
but taking the humorous aspects of the individuals
who participated during the war,
you could have made a far finer program,
which would certainly have been
less distasteful to the people here.
- Get a younger view. - I'd like to make the point
that a younger person watching "'Allo 'Allo"
does in no way lessen the horrors of the war
and the horrors of the nazi occupation I've learned about.
I think it's a comedy and it's acceptable as a comedy
and would no way influence me to think of it as serious
or as the Germans as anything like they were. It's complete satire.
I disagree with anyone saying that it's influencing me
to think that the Germans were less horrific and terrible as they were.
- So it doesn't colour your attitude in any way? - No, in no way.
I must say that it doesn't colour my attitude either.
My mother was a war widow. My father was killed during the war,
I find the show hilarious, but I can understand that
people have very strong, very deep, very sensitive feelings.
Paul Taylor, why do they feel like that?
You're an academic. You've researched these issues.
- Could I go back a little bit, Robert? - You could do what you like.
What surprises me is that the gentleman over there
who I understood was going to be in nazi uniform isn't. I would have thought--
- That's a technical problem. - It may well be, but I would've thought
some of the people sitting close to you at the moment,
would have been deeply and justifiably offended had he sat there
- in a nazi uniform. - I must admit I felt that myself.
And I wondered how people would react.
Their friends there say that they wear them
a great deal locally in their pub.
but that's not the reason today.
There's technical problems with their costume.
But how do you respond to what's being said?
I would actually agree with Sean French whom I haven't met before,
independently to the same conclusion.
I think they are any numbers of subjects you can cover in comedy.
You can cover the most dire subjects not at the level of farce
or as well at the level of Feydeau farce as Barry Took says,
as "'Allo, 'Allo" does.
You can have comedies about funerals,
about cancer, about handicapped children--
We do, don't we? We have comedies about the disabled,
- About the mentally ill, about funerals-- - We do.
Why do we take a particular exception to this?
I think the main thing is--
Lots of the comedies that there are, say, about the disabled,
have a substantially higher quality of writing
and perhaps a higher quality of production,
I couldn't say a higher quality of acting
because "'Allo 'Allo" is obviously--
- It's got-- - (OVERLAPPING SHOUTING)
...albeit they are good actors.
To continue the point that the gentleman over there made,
I think we're sufficiently educated
to understand that the war was not like that.
That our education says-- And tells us of the horrors
and that we are not indoctrinated by the program.
Bill, there's a young voice. There's a young girl who's saying
I know all about the war, I'm not indoctrinated,
the program does not make me think any less of people like you
and my own father and the contribution that they have made.
She still has the same respect, reverence. What's the problem?
Yes, I think my version of the problem
is not in particular to what the British think of it.
But more so of what all our great friends
on the continent think, look--
But Bill, we don't make television for...
I was shot down
and I was one of the 3,000 lucky, fortunate
bomber command chaps that came back.
Now, my life was saved by people on the continent.
People that you are now sending up on this program,
they look at the program and they do not understand us.
They do not understand this particular British sense of humour.
Barry, are we being insensitive
- to our friends in Europe? - Yes we are, but how many
French half hour situation comedies have you seen lately?
How many German situation comedies have you seen? They don't make them.
The reason they don't make them--
We've got some French people here. Let's see what they say.
They do not share our sense of humour.
- It's neither a good or a bad thing. - Yes, we do.
"Yes we do," he says, "Yes, we do."
- Yes, because-- - BARRY: Your sense of humour... Do you speak for yourself?
Let the Frenchman speak for himself.
I don't watch the program as a program on war-- A comedy on war.
I watch it as a program
making fun of French or German, or even British.
- You're French, you live in Britain? - Yeah, I am.
- But you watch the program? - I watch the program, I like it, yeah.
- You like it? - Yeah, I like it
and I don't understand it as well.
(ALL LAUGHING)
And your accent is real?
Uh, yes, but-- Yes, it's not my BBC French accent.
It's not your BBC French. The lady next to you.
I'd like to just make a comment
I think that this issue of people
when they're talking about the vengeance against the Germans.
This show apparently was made for...
A little bit of joviality in a sense.
And I think we should look at the program as that.
I mean, we know how these people have suffered.
We've had family that have suffered.
But this program is made for, as you say,
a little bit of humour.
- We don't get very much in this... - It's a hard world we live in.
We don't get very much humour in this world.
- A light touch, doesn't hurt now and again. - This should be forgotten
and we just look at the program-- Not in the sense--
- Not forgotten? - I don't mean in the sense of forgetting.
- I mean, this-- - Let's make that clear.
I don't mean forgotten.
What I mean to say is when we see the program,
we look at the program as what it is.
- We shouldn't take it seriously. - That's right.
- It's in no way reflecting our view-- - No reflection at all.
- Of the brave men and women who fought in the war. - No, no.
I'm a German living in London
and maybe the worst expert to talk on this.
When I first saw this program, I really couldn't believe it.
On German television you would never in a 1,000 years,
or at least not today, have seen something like that.
But I have to admit, I enjoyed it.
Hang on, you're calling on five conversations going on here.
When I saw it, I enjoyed it
and maybe felt guilty a bit by doing it.
So it wouldn't run on German television,
I'm absolutely sure. But somehow I enjoyed it
on English television that was my position.
We're talking about comedy, particular "'Allo, 'Allo."
And the way in which it depicts the resistance, the R.A.F.,
and indeed French men and women during the war
and whether or not it's offensive and in bad taste.
James Hadley, you have great contacts with the French.
What's your experience in the way it's actually perceived in France.
Or what does it do to French-British relations?
Robert, if I may first of all add that also I was myself in the war.
I was also in the R.A.F.. I didn't get shot down, thank god!
I was also in the Far East and therefore I cannot actually comment too much
about the European aspect.
But I think, I'd like to take up, if I may,
first of all, there's an assumption made by a lot of people.
That the French themselves would necessarily
find a program like this offensive.
If I may, I'd like to go back to a point that Barry talked-- Made.
And when he referred to Feydeau for example.
Because this is something that was very much in my mind.
One thing, I think we all ought to bear in mind--
I hope I don't sound terribly pompous--
The English always remember what they see.
And the French remember what they hear.
Therefore, I suspect that a program
which is farcical in the British sense
of our sense of humour.
I'm thinking of Brian Rix and their trousers falling down
and all that sort of thing--
Is not something which the French are themselves
particularly attuned to. And therefore I suspect
that there could well be a lack of understanding
in what to the French would seem a rather unsophisticated comedy.
But to us a very genuine comedy in a too farcical--
I'm going to go back to a Frenchman on this.
Is there another Frenchman who would let--
You don't understand our sense of humour. You realize that?
Well, I've been here 18 years, so I have learned to live with it.
- But I can see-- - ROBERT: Is it that bad?
Let's put it this way, it's different.
In what way is it different?
I can't tell you, it's all subtleties unfortunately, but--
- We're more subtle than you? - I'm not saying,
but the subtleties are different...
the emphasis is put one way in one country and in another.
It is difficult for us, when of course as French citizens here
we feel that we are mocked. But I can see as a third generation
we have to live together and humour is a link
between one generation to another.
So with great respect to war resistance
and people who have survived war and lived through atrocities.
You have to have, I think, the BBC
or other medias, the right program.
To keep it all in perspective.
You have to pay-- We have to pay our respects and dues to these people
and the youngs have said they haven't forgotten, thank god.
And my children, I hope they're both French and English,
so they have to live with it as well.
And we have to-- I think, think about Europe
and humour will take us through it, I hope.
Well, that's a lovely thought.
It's not just, of course, foreigners that are the butt of our humour,
It's also race as well. Cliff?
You got into pro-rabbi.
You sound worried that we're coming to you
but there are problems also
with humour and you got into difficulties. Tell us about it.
Yeah, I did... I'm quite fascinated by what's been going on here.
I don't think-- The kind of humour
that got me into trouble wasn't racist humour.
I wasn't actually poking fun at anybody.
I was seeing humour in moments that other people were finding quite serious.
And I think that-- That's a different kind of--
Can you give us a brief example?
Yeah, I mean the one that everybody read about in the papers--
A young girl on her way down from the pub
tripped up after she had a sip of their wine.
And I just diffused it
by saying, "Yeah well, one drink and she's anybody's."
Back she went to her seat and half the congregation were offended--
- (LAUGHING) - I think you got about 50-50 there.
- I'm not sure. - Yeah, that's right--
- But you got sacked as a result, as a rabbi. - Yes, I did.
As a result of telling those kind of jokes.
Yes, I mean, I wouldn't describe it as telling jokes,
but as-- For having that kind of humour, yeah.
Does anybody find that kind of humour offensive? Barry?
Not at all, if I may a quote was told to me
by a very ancient and revered psychiatrist-- psychoanalyst
who was herself analysed by Sigmund Freud.
And when, after a lot of pressure from Britain,
the jewish Sigmund Freud
was eventually released, the Gestapo,
said to him at the frontier--
Would you sign a paper to the effect that you've been well treated?
And he said, "I'll recommend you to all my friends."
(ALL LAUGHING)
That's coming from a man very late on in his life
who understood a great deal about the nature of human beings,
perhaps more than any man that's lived. I think it's a pretty good show.
Let's get a young reaction.
I'm jewish and I actually found that joke very offensive
because-- I go to jewish school
and we learn a lot about the holocaust,
though I've never lived through the holocaust,
I feel what people who did go through it
have been through.
I find jokes-- Especially for me, holocaust jokes
I find very, very distasteful and anyone, except from the Germans,
will find that distasteful.
I think, "How can someone make a joke about 6 million people dying?"
I mean, you personally didn't make a joke about 6 million people,
but the people who did suffer from the Germans, not just jews--
black people, homosexuals, gypsies,
anyone who wasn't the German race--
Do you feel that every time that anybody makes a joke--
The world is going to be very difficult, isn't it,
if all those subjects are prohibited?
Not that any of them have to be prohibited,
but I don't think you have to make a joke about them.
I think... a black person would find most black jokes offensive.
I've sat here--
- You've got into trouble as well, haven't you? - I didn't get into trouble.
They didn't see me. The lights were out when I left.
- (ALL LAUGH) - So they couldn't see me.
I was wondering. All these lights,
they're going to bleach me before we finish.
However, I've sat here and I've listened.
I get up on stage and I tell jokes.
I tell jokes about blacks, jews, whites-- Whatever you've got.
All I do, I get on stage, tell these jokes,
in order to make people laugh,
make people happy.
This is what it's all about. It's to make people happy.
Not to rebuild or remind them
of what went on before
or what's going to go on later on.
- But Chalkie- - CHALKIE: It brings us together.
Nobody is doubting yours or anybody else's sincerity
or the writers of "'Allo 'Allo."
Nobody's saying they're going out of their way
to make us unhappy or miserable,
but they are saying that they are insensitive.
You should understand that people have deep, real feelings.
But we do-- You know, people like me who get up on there,
do realize that people
have deep-rooted feelings
You got into trouble, haven't you? Give us an example--
- Well, I-- - Of your humour.
I don't think I really got into trouble.
I think somebody wrote in and said "He's racist,"
because what was the joke I told-- about the Pakistani.
Now if I don't tell it,
you certainly can't be able to tell it, surely, would you?
The race-relation board would be down on you like a ton of bricks.
What I mean, I've got to tell it.
He's trying to make people happy
and he's making a few people laugh now.
I think the point at issue is
that jewish people got persecuted--
as a jew myself, I know
that jews got attacked for being mean
and what actually happens is that jokes
about jewish meanness or about faults,
about different races, different sexes
actually trivialise all that
and they allow it to come out into the open, and they--
The worst thing about it is--
I think is even worst than trivializing it,
they legitimize it. And that is what I find offensive.
With regard to what Cliff said,
I don't personally find Cliff's joke,
which he told from the pulpit, offensive.
I think it might be perceived as sacrilegious,
and he might have been sacked as a result of that.
But it's not a racist joke, it's not an offensive joke.
But I do find all racist jokes offensive.
But the trouble with this is of course, we're all stereotypes.
The British are, the French are, the Germans,
the jews, the Pakistani, the black--
- CHALKIE: Robert! - Chalkie.
I get on stage and I say "I'm a jew".
I've got a big nose-- Fresh air is free,
that's why we're jews, why should anybody get offended over that?
- SEAN: Would you be offended - Not many people laughed, Chalkie.
SEAN: If I were a member of the national front in telling anti-black jokes?
No, I wouldn't be offended. I think everybody is entitled
to make a joke. Why?
- As-- I mean, sometimes I-- - We're a multi-racial society.
Everything should go. You should be able to talk to me,
I should be able to talk to you
without being offended at what you say
or what I say to you or vice versa.
But jokes can represent hatred, can't they, and violence.
If you're looking for the hatred I suppose you'll find it there.
If you're not, if you're looking at the joke as a joke--
I wish it were like that.
We're going to have somebody else from the back. Go on.
I think it depends on who tells the jokes. If a white person
made a joke about blacks, they'd be offended.
But you get Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, who make jokes about blacks--
Why? Why can't I make a joke about-- I'm not racist?
I'm not anti-- Why can't I make it?
Why can't I make exactly the same joke as Chalkie
and you not resent it? If he can make the joke, I can surely.
But I-- But that's how people feel.
- Is that how you feel? - I do as well, yes.
So you'd feel more offended if I made a racist joke than if Chalkie made one?
- Yes. - What about a jewish joke?
Would you find a jewish joke just as offensive
if Cliff makes it as if a catholic makes it?
Because it's-- I think it is quite an important point.
If you think about some of the jokes
that Woody Allen tells about jewish people,
I find that quite interesting, quite--
It's almost like he is relating some of my experiences as a jewish person
and it's not offensive, because it's from a certain sympathy,
and there's a certain warmth there.
i mean, i've suffered these sort of jokes
throughout school about jewish people being mean,
washing their toilet paper again and something like that.
But the key thing is, you're not allowed to sort of--
You're not allowed to say that was racist,
because everyone is laughing around you
and it's all quite a big joke.
But you're saying it's hurt you.
- Yes. - Throughout your school life
you've been hurt by those jokes which the rest of us just take for granted.
The first time I was hassled as a jewish person I was 11.
When someone told a certain joke, a jewish joke,
and I just didn't know how to handle it.
Everyone was laughing around me and it's very, very offensive.
Okay. I'm trying to get as many people to make a contribution
who haven't made a contribution before to do so now.
I'm the secretary of the Royal Air Forces Escaping Society
and I know that most of the members,
of which there are about 350 members left,
are ashamed on behalf of the BBC
when this program went out first.
We had many, many telephone calls.
I myself was in France during the war
and people who are born in Britain will never understand
what these initial R.A.F.
and BBC stood for,
what they meant to us.
They were the lifeline for all of us.
They were looked upon--
They really are engraved in people's hearts.
I know it sounds sentimental, but it's absolutely true.
They're not just initials like R.A.F., BBC, they mean something.
- They're-- - And I feel that on behalf
of our helpers I can only say
that the BBC has let us down.
- Rene-- Rene. - I'd like to say--
- Speaking for the BBC... - I'm not speaking on behalf of the BBC, but...
ROBERT: It depends what you say.
I'd just like to know if the association the lady represents
was equally as offended by programs
somebody said up there earlier on, like "Dad's Army,' like "Hogan's Heroes,"
- like "Mash" et cetera. - ROBERT: LET HIM FINISH.
I can't think of anymore off the top of my head.
All right, Barry, are there limits to what we should do with humour?
We've had several complaints whether it's jews, catholics,
French, Germans, R.A.F., resistance...
- Are there limits to what we should do? - Before I try to answer that,
I must say the point about the Freud joke is not an anti-semitic joke,
because I was illustrating the man's bravery.
- ... It was the holocaust. - It wasn't to do with the holocaust.
Let's not get involved in that one now.
You're going to have to take up after that. But... Would you draw a line?
With great respect to the young man, it's so foolish.
I was talking about a very brave man,
making a very brave statement in the face of grave danger.
- ROBERT: Fine, Barry. - And the thing that is essential about humour
it does illuminate and it diffuses
and it helps us to live more easily throughout our life
wherever we are and with whoever we are.
Paul, are there limits? Are there, as we say, taboos?
I think certainly, yes.
I disagree with Barry to some extent,
though there's a fair amount of agreement.
And I've always understood a joke to be some kind of shortcut to consensus.
If you tell a racist joke,
all the racist assumptions underlining that joke
are immediately taped into.
So if I ask Chalkie for example--
What's red with wheels?
- And he doesn't know. - Obviously he doesn't know.
- CHALKIE: It's the London bus? - No, it's a whipped nigger.
- Oh, well. - ROBERT: That went down like a lead balloon.
ROBERT: Sean, are there limits to humour?
I've never seen a red nigger anyway.
I didn't know there was one.
The point that one of the young men made there
is that he doesn't matter so much what you're saying
as the manner in which you're saying it.
Or as the gentleman up there said, "Who is saying it?"
I'd agree completely. I think there are no areas off limits.
The jokes are fantastically revealing
and they show the attitudes behind them.
And I think for the gentleman over there
to equate "Dad's Army" and "'Allo, 'Allo."
It seems to me to illustrate the failing of "'Allo, 'Allo?"
Yeah...
I've listened with amazement.
I'm a member of the British Limbless Servicemen's Association.
And a lot of my members, all of my members are disabled.
A lot of them spent time in prisoner of war camp.
- Are you going to watch this program? - Which one?
- "'Allo, 'Allo" tonight? - No.
You're not. Well, he's not going to watch it.
17 millions people are going to be watching it at 7:35 tonight.
I don't know what you are going to do. The decision is yours.
I'll be joining them. But whatever you do,
have a good weekend, take care of yourselves and each other.
See you on Monday. Thank you very much...
(APPLAUSE)